Strategy Meets Reality Podcast

Brave Builders of the Future: Louise Le Gat on Shapeshifting Leadership and Navigating System Shifts

• Mike Jones • Season 1 • Episode 19

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Leadership is no longer about maintaining the old—it’s about shapeshifting into the new.

In this episode of Strategy Meets Reality, Mike Jones is joined by Louise Le Gat, creator of the purpose-led roadmap, to explore how leaders must evolve in the face of global disruption, systemic shifts, and societal transformation.

Louise challenges us to stop being good soldiers of the status quo and become brave builders of the future. From mental model upgrades to organisational reinvention, this is a deep dive into the inner and outer shifts leaders must make to shape what comes next.

🔍 In this episode:

  • Why we’re still acting like we’re safely in port—but we’re already in the storm
  • The move from control to coherence, from managing to shaping
  • How imagination and purpose redefine value in uncertain times
  • Dismantling survival mechanisms and embracing uniqueness
  • The inner system shifts that must accompany outer change
  • Creating spaces for intrapreneurial agility and reinvention

🎧 Keywords: Leadership, System Shifts, Mental Models, Purpose-Led, Inner Work, Shapeshifting, Reinvention, Positive Impact, Complexity, Legacy Leadership

📘 Learn more about Louise’s work: https://www.louiselegat.com/
📬 Connect with Louise: https://www.linkedin.com/in/louiselegat

Send Mike a Message

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🔗 Full episodes, show notes, and resources: https://www.lbiconsulting.com/strategymeetsreality-podcast

📺 Watch on YouTube → https://www.youtube.com/@StrategyMeetsReality
🎧 Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Buzzsprout

💬 Connect with host Mike Jones → https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-h-jones/

Louise Le Gat (00:00)
I've been looking at is that shift from being good soldiers of the old status quo to what I call brave builders of the new future that we actually want to see.

everybody's behaving as if we're still moored in port safely in the port that we've always known when actually we're already in the middle of the ocean facing like hundred feet waves.

at the core of it is we've got to stop being insistent of taking the old maps and trying to use those to be able to navigate what is now in front of us, because we are the ones who have to create new maps.

Mike Jones (01:04)
Welcome back to the strategy meets reality podcast today. I'm delighted to be joined by Louise Legat It's a pleasure to have you on the show Louise

Louise Le Gat (01:11)
Hi,

very happy to be here too.

Mike Jones (01:14)
Awesome. Just for our listeners, would you be able to give a bit of background about yourself and what you've been, and some context about what you've been up to lately?

Louise Le Gat (01:20)
Yeah,

actually I'll start with what I've been up to lately. I think that's the one that's much more front of mind. And one of the big pieces here is that often we think about system shifting within organizations or within the existing kind of systems and environments and ecosystems that we're actually in. And one of the pieces I've been focusing on is the what if we are in a system shift in terms of the world itself, like the

Mike Jones (01:25)
Okay.

Louise Le Gat (01:47)
blueprint the operating system of our economies, of literally how we think about all of that. And so if we are in the midst of that, because in some ways we are in a bit of perfect storm, whether it's AI and what that's going to do in terms of the disruptions around that and the sustainability crisis or the upheaval of the world order, then so many things are fundamentally changing. so

Mike Jones (01:48)
Mmm.

Louise Le Gat (02:12)
how do we need to evolve ourselves as leaders? Because my background is leadership, it's positive impact leadership. So I've been working in leadership for 25 years and I've been focusing on what I call positive impact leadership or what I then call purpose-led leadership for the last 16 years. And we are at pivotal times and all of that needs to evolve to a very different level. So that's what I've been focusing on.

Mike Jones (02:34)
Hmm.

Wow, that's good. I like that idea that, you what if the system is shifting outside the organization, what will you do? And I suppose the paradigm shift that needs to take. But what do you this means for leadership then?

Louise Le Gat (02:51)
So what's been interesting around leadership is we've always had when you lead leadership development, you always have this conversation between managers, the distinction between managers or leaders. And ultimately, most people end up focusing on being managers, right? That's what we're doing. So what we've been having leadership be, it's looking at the...

Mike Jones (03:03)
yeah, yeah.

Louise Le Gat (03:14)
existing results and performance and effectiveness within one system. And we have a lot of ways of being able to now ensure that. So you're learning ultimately to manage yourself, manage your team, manage your tasks. And the issue there is that most of us, even as leaders, have been trained to be what I would call good soldiers of the old status quo.

Mike Jones (03:29)
you

Louise Le Gat (03:39)
So we've been taught to manage it, we've been taught to sustain it, and we've been taught, if we're honest, and especially if we're high achievers, to win at it, because that's the game, right? You get your promotions because you're winning, it's that you're winning the competition. And when you are in the midst of that system shifting, you can't just keep focusing on business as usual, which is managing business as usual. You need to start looking beyond that.

Mike Jones (03:40)
Mmm, okay, yes.

Louise Le Gat (04:06)
And so the piece that I've been looking at is that shift from being good soldiers of the old status quo to what I call brave builders of the new future that we actually want to see.

But the core issue is, yes, it lives in that leader conversation as opposed to the manager conversation, but it has to go way beyond that so that we can become those who not just

win at the status quo, but actually are able to fundamentally evolve it because that's what we're here to do.

Mike Jones (04:38)
Yeah, and I think that's a really tough tension that you face between the status quo and the future. And is a tension that, I suppose everything that's built around leaders, around the KPIs, metrics and stuff like that, is skewed towards protecting the status quo because that's what...

I'm essentially going to be chastised on or, you know, foremost managed on. That's the thing that's going to get me promoted, which then always means that that that that bit about understanding the future, what's it mean? How do we need to fundamentally adapt? That almost takes second place. Which isn't good. Definitely when the shocks come and they get, you know, hit pretty sharp and then everybody starts to react to what's happened.

Louise Le Gat (05:22)
Yeah,

and it's an interesting thing. I mean, it's lucky if it takes second place, because a lot of the parts doesn't even like, it's not even in existence, Basically, if we're busy, they've got a list of things to do, they know what they're gonna be measured on, and they're motoring through that. What I think is interesting, and I'd love actually to see what you think around that, is my current piece that I'm mulling over is that everybody's acting.

Mike Jones (05:30)
I'm being generous. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Louise Le Gat (05:50)
as if we're still in business as usual. So it's this idea that we are still in business as usual, but the reality and the image I use is everybody's behaving as if we're still moored in port safely in the port that we've always known when actually we're already in the middle of the ocean facing like hundred feet waves.

Mike Jones (05:55)
Mmm.

Louise Le Gat (06:11)
It's just that we're in this hyper normalization state of thinking, well,

In my world, I'm just keeping managing what's in front of me, but we're somehow ignoring the undercurrent of fundamental disruption that is, for some of us, is arriving or has arrived and for others, which is definitely on its way. And let's be honest, I'm not saying you suddenly stop managing what exists, right? Because you still got to maintain that.

Mike Jones (06:33)
Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (06:41)
But it's also stop pretending that we're still in business as usual when we're already in the in-between system.

Mike Jones (06:48)
Yeah, yeah, you're right. And there's a lot there, especially with capacity. I speak to lot of leaders, especially strategic space, and I look to see what they do with their time. And they spent most of the time dealing with stuff that would I would call, are in that operational space where they are trying to make sure that they're delivering values efficiently as possible. They're managing the risks of today because they've still got that value they need to give.

to the current external environment, as I call it. But because they're doing that, do wonder, it's sort of constatine the deorganisation. They've left no capacity to understand what's happening in the external environment, what's changing, what are the relationships that are now breaking down, what new relationship do we need to form, what new regulation changes are happening, all this good stuff. They don't have the capacity to do that.

So this sort of, I don't know, did they ignore it? I'm not sure. Is it willful ignorance or is it just, well it's loads of different things.

Louise Le Gat (07:48)
I don't know, maybe we need to ask that to people

who will be listening in on that. I think there's different levels of it in the senses that's where the hard lives. And sometimes we've got enough hard in our everyday without adding more of the hard. But the issue with that is then we deal with the hard because it's coming anyway.

Mike Jones (07:52)
Hehehehe

Yeah, yeah.

Louise Le Gat (08:12)
in a crisis context. So that's what I'm seeing leaders get hit. Like for example, currently the four impact sector has got massively hit in terms of what's happening with USAID. it's, you know, we're facing extinction level or existential level threat that we actually have to address. none of us really saw it coming actually.

Mike Jones (08:15)
Yes.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Hmm

Louise Le Gat (08:39)
And even

me in the sustainability field, like, cause that's a big part of what I've focused on. I thought I was going to be buffered and I wasn't, and that was a real surprise. So.

Mike Jones (08:49)
Yeah, but again, that's why is that capacity thing is it, you know, making that space to have those conversations of sense, make to understand what's going on. Because even in like the impact for impact space, they. They thought that, you know, is the way that they got funding was always going to be a given. America for so long had been this bank balance that was given out all this money and it was it was going to be safe. But.

I think that's the thing we need to get into is the fact that nothing's ever safe. And there are early warning signs, especially when you've got Donald Trump. Now I say with Donald Trump is like,

What's best way to explain Donald Trump? Don't take what he says factually, but take it seriously.

Louise Le Gat (09:33)
That's a nice one, I like that. And I think it actually comes back to one of the words that you were using a bit earlier when you were saying that everybody's focused on adding value. That the issue is that in this in between phase, there's a real question about what do we value and what has value. Because in a way, for example, if you talk about the funding,

Mike Jones (09:35)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Louise Le Gat (09:55)
you fund what you value and what you consider in your society has value. Or anyway, that's how it's meant to work. And I think that we are suddenly in the middle of this confusion about what has value, because maybe certain countries who were standing for certain values are now standing for something completely different. So what it's actually doing is it's bringing it back to us individually as leaders in terms of what is it that we actually

Mike Jones (10:03)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Louise Le Gat (10:23)
value? are we going to be a stand for? And you can see that in terms of some of the areas where there's been some big changes in relation to the administration. And you've got some organizations that bowed down straight away. Like, you know, I come from the legal sector and I was watching big law with horror, to be honest. And so immediate bowing down. And then you had actually, some of the smaller firms.

Mike Jones (10:43)
Hmm.

Louise Le Gat (10:47)
who were the ones who were like, no, we know what our values are, we're gonna stand up and we're gonna beat this thing. But it's coming back down to individual leaders ultimately, making choices and making decisions about what has value. But I think what we forget is that the in-between is a shaping of a new set of values.

And so there's a battle going on around that, but there's no real conversation about what it is that we want to value next.

Mike Jones (11:18)
Yeah, because there is quite a seismic shift happening across the whole world, just geopolitically.

people reinstating power that they've lost or trying to establish power. You're seeing already in Africa the move for independence away from sort of any sort of foreign influence and money. But then that's just on the geopolitical side. And then we have all the technology part. With all that is what I call not misinformation. It's just there's a lot of information.

And it's hard to decipher between what what's actually do we need to look at? What's actually going to be impactful? What's just noise? Because even in the AI space, there is stuff that's just yes, need to listen to heat to some is just noise. Some is just dystopian view of stuff.

So it's really hard for leaders to orientate to think about what is changing and then thus then going well if that's changing what new value space is going to emerge that we need to we need to seize upon or we need to be involved in yeah to be viable.

Louise Le Gat (12:22)
And I think it's interesting

how I'd go even further in a way. It's funny, one of the pieces that I did is I worked a lot on leading change and working with leaders to help them navigate transitions, whether it's personal, but also organizational with teams, et et cetera. And there was a whole phase where I was working with people who were, they knew something was changing, but...

Mike Jones (12:27)
Mm-hmm.

Louise Le Gat (12:44)
they didn't know what was gonna change, which was a specific type of change because normally in organizations, you're like, okay, this is where you're leaving and this is where you're going and you might not like it, but that's where you're headed. And then let's help you come to terms and get your head around it and see what you're gonna do within that context. But it was interesting for this period, I kept getting these changes where, no, we're gonna have people sit for a year, not knowing what's gonna happen to them. So I had views on

Mike Jones (12:48)
Mm.

Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (13:12)
why

they couldn't do it differently, but that's a different matter. But it was a really good practice for what we're going through now in the sense that what I'm saying to my leaders is there is a change and the change is from, had in a way a kind of fake certainty, but there was a level of stability. So we kind of knew what was what. But now we are in what I call the three U's, which is uncertainty, unknown and unstable.

That's our new reality. And so everybody's trying to go, well, I want to know exactly what's going to happen. But we don't get to read the end of this book because we're meant to read the book, to not just read the book, but write the book. And so what I'm saying to people is what we actually have to focus on is not get into a spin of what's going to happen because lots of different things could happen based on what us as leaders, what we decide to do now.

Mike Jones (13:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (14:07)
So I'm saying the real question is what do want to create? Because the opportunity with any system shift and we are in the chaos of that in between, but out of chaos, if you step up as a leader, but not just a manager, but as a real leader and what I call really focusing on that being at builder of the future, you get to shape, we get to shape what comes next. But we have to start asking ourselves more, not what's going to happen because that's that reactive passive thing.

and much more, what am I going to create here? What are we going to create together? What do we want to create out of this? And that will have us actually be part of the shape shifting as opposed to observers or prisoners of the shape shifting.

Mike Jones (14:39)
Hmm

Yeah.

Yes, and I often get it when we do strategy or we do change. I always get the question from someone in the team, how do you know this is going to work, Mike? I'm like, well, I don't know if it's going to work. I'm pretty confident that we'll adapt, that's the paradigm of that stability you're talking about, that we start here and we're going to finish here and we know it's going to work because we've got the perfect

Louise Le Gat (14:56)
you

Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Jones (15:12)
gantt chart that's going to tell us, rather than going, we don't know, we know what we essentially want to create in terms of, know, I always use the term, what's going to be meaningfully different when the smoke clears. And it's the decisions along the way that we need to adapt, but to do that, we need sense making at the edges, that loop between observe and decide needs to be short as possible.

Louise Le Gat (15:12)
Exactly.

Mike Jones (15:37)
to give us that adaption space to be able to shape. Otherwise, if we don't, we're always gonna be reacting because we're waiting for permissions. And then, you know, it's that feedback loops. And then we've done this, okay, what's happened? Where we're in relation to where we think we should be. Okay, what decisions do we need to be next? Yeah, I like that.

Louise Le Gat (15:53)
Yeah, and

one of the conversations I'm having a lot with leaders and I'll mention this and maybe I can actually go through what I've seen how practically or leadership does need to evolve because there's kind of three different dynamics around that. But I'll speak to one of those three dynamics, is that so often I work with high achieving leaders, right? So they don't have a problem setting an objective.

Mike Jones (16:06)
Yeah, yeah.

you

Louise Le Gat (16:17)
and then doing the nice, either way, it's the gunshot or the linear plan to get there. but the piece around where we are now, and that's why I use the word create, is that we can't create the future in that nice linear checking the box, ticking the boxes kind of way. It's actually...

Mike Jones (16:39)
Mmm, yep.

Louise Le Gat (16:42)
and I know it's bit strange to talk about that in terms of leadership. It's more akin to artistry and to what we know about creation and the creation process than it is that more structured linear piece because it requires a different level of imagination. It requires, dare I say, a different level of maybe intuitive kind of following. It's a very different...

Mike Jones (16:47)
Mm-mm.

Louise Le Gat (17:08)
piece, but also with the reason I work with it, it's also very exciting because where we, what we are is we are at the edge of the known world. What we're facing is something that's uncharted. And at the core of it is we've got to stop being insistent of taking the old maps and trying to use those to be able to navigate what is now in front of us, because we are the ones who have to create new maps.

as opposed to enforce the old ones. And that's one aspect of the shifts that needs to happen.

Mike Jones (17:35)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're right. And that's the I was on with Mark McGrath. He talks a lot about Oodaloo. And this thing John Boyd always talks about was that are you willing to destroy your own mental model to recreate something else? Yes. And that's that's a

When you think about it, it's quite a strong thing to do, but it's exactly what we're talking about here. It's, we willing to, you know, destroy it to be open? And it's not saying that we're going to throw everything out, but it's about, we, cause there'll be some stuff that can carry on through and still be useful, but it's that ability to, you know, map something new and be open for that. Otherwise we're going to be carrying this dogma through and trying to force,

know, rectangle into a circle and thinking that it's going to work.

Louise Le Gat (18:26)
It's exactly that. also one of the things I find interesting in this context is how you have the outer system, but what most of us is we've internalized that outer system. So it's almost like we've got that mirror of the outer system as an inner system. And that's what I call our software. so in order to create something different, we have to become aware of our software and where it's helping us.

Mike Jones (18:48)
Yeah, yeah.

Louise Le Gat (18:54)
literally chart these new maps and where it's holding us back. And it was interesting, recently I had one of my clients who said to me, you keep talking about a software update, like we're fixing a few bugs, but we're not tweaking stuff anymore. It's a fundamental software upgrade. She works in IT, so for her the difference between update and upgrade was fundamental. This is a version upgrade and it's fundamental.

Mike Jones (19:01)
Mm.

Yeah

Louise Le Gat (19:20)
And it starts with giving ourselves in terms of our inner system, that version upgrade to be able to create what comes next.

Mike Jones (19:31)
Yeah, I use that example when I'm with leaders and I talk about, who's got an iPhone? You've got an iPhone because everyone else. But I said, why does your iPhone keep wanting to update all the time? And they're like pausing and thinking about it. I just think why is it? And eventually it gets to the point because they're saying the external environment has changed.

and it needs to update software so it can operate effectively in that new environment. And I was like, yeah, exactly. And that's the same with us. Our mental models, the way we view and orientate the world, will over time come disconnected. Not because we are ignorant of what's going on around us, things shift. So we need to update it. We need to be willing to update our mental model so that we can stay viable and be able to.

to navigate this new uncertainty that we face ourselves navigating.

Louise Le Gat (20:22)
Yeah, and that's exactly what I've been working

on because I feel my sense is that's where I found the gap was. And it started because I was working a lot on the sustainability side. And just in part of my experience, I teach, for example, the purpose-led leadership within the context at the University of Geneva in terms of leading the sustainability transition. And I created a whole leadership track for

Mike Jones (20:29)
Mmm.

Mm.

Louise Le Gat (20:47)
one, big incubator for scale-ups around the SDGs. And so it's always been a piece that I've wanted to really kind of be looking at. And what I've found is that the common, almost mistake that we make is that we think that if we have learned like the technical expertise,

that then we can automatically bring the changes that we need to. And that's where a lot of people, even before we were talking about this much more major system shift, were stumbling because they think, I know all the technical terms, whatever, or the engineering, or whatever it is that they're focusing on, that that's very different from, how do you need to operate so that you can actually bring that?

Mike Jones (21:10)
Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (21:34)
And for example, very practically, you know, the old systems are based on competition. And so I would see people in the sustainability field, really be super competitive. And I'm like, well, just from that perspective, it means that there's going to be something that's going to be off because you haven't even asked yourself if competition is part of the value system of sustainability and nor have you explored that whether you need to dismantle that within yourself.

Mike Jones (21:57)
Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (21:59)
I don't have all the answers, but at least you need to start asking yourself those questions.

Mike Jones (22:03)
Yeah, you've brought up some really good couple of points. That first one about needing to do technical thing. I've had it before where, know, I mean, being asked to have a look at help an organisation, then someone's turn around and goes, well, you can't help us because you've got no experience in this field. And I'm like, well, that's probably a good thing because I'm not taking in.

traditions just like the mental mother we're talking about. I could be that beautiful idiot that's going to probably look at things in a different way, different perspective and challenge what you're doing. So I think there is this, you're perfectly right, I think there is this thing to sometimes step away and be a bit ignorant to what the system is, because that can open up a different perspective. And your second point that you brought up around...

What was the second point?

Louise Le Gat (22:51)
Yes, yeah, it's fine. Competition, yeah.

Mike Jones (22:51)
yes, winning, that's it, sorry. I do this, call me back when it comes, I drift off, it's like, yeah,

competition. But you're exactly right, and this is the challenge I have with a lot of the orthodoxy around strategy, because it's about winning. What's your winning aspiration? How do you if you've won? You where to, you know, they've got the where to play framework, and it's like, what's our winning aspiration? Well, if I'm selling shampoos,

and I'm competing for shelf space, then maybe that's a ⁓ context that I'll look at. But when you think about what majority of organizations are, especially like third sector for impact, public services, all this stuff, it's not about winning.

Louise Le Gat (23:31)
Exactly.

Mike Jones (23:32)
Yeah, is it? Yeah.

And it just throws me, but because all the MBAs classically teach these orthodoxies, most MBAs are still, and business schools are still living off of linear cause relationship. The world is stable and the world is predictable and thus we can use these frameworks. And typically, as long as you aim for the top right corner of the

2x2 matrix, you'll be okay.

Louise Le Gat (23:56)
Yeah, it's funny because it feels like we've got two threads going now. So one thread is that structure of our thinking. So in almost the inner system shift that we need to make now. And when you were sharing about that, it reminded me of an example of when I was ⁓ a lawyer, because my first career was as a lawyer in the city of London. And I always...

Mike Jones (24:01)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Louise Le Gat (24:21)
This taught me just an invaluable lesson around this whole kind of thinking part and in a system. I, because I'm half French, I was in a English law firm. I was a litigator, but I was advising French companies because I'm bilingual. And so my clients were sort of top French banks or top French companies. And I always remember one of the...

heads of a big French bank and he called me and he said to me, Louise, I'm calling you because I want to get your advice on ⁓ these French companies in France that we want to liquidate. And I was just like, has he forgotten I'm his English litigation lawyer? And I have no idea about liquidating companies in France. It's just not my area of expertise. He must have got the wrong number.

Mike Jones (25:12)
you

Louise Le Gat (25:13)
And so, you you're trying to appear like kind of, know what you're doing, but I was just thinking, I don't think I can bluff my way through this. And so I said to him, you do know I'm your English litigation lawyer and I have no idea about kind of French liquidation law, but I'm very happy to put you through to the Paris office who I'm sure will be able to help you. And he said, no, I'm very conscious that I've called you. I'm like, okay. He said, because I like the way you make me think.

There's something in the way that we have conversations that you shift the way my mind focuses. And I need that first. And then of course you can put me through to your Paris office and I'll gratefully receive or pay for the actual French law advice. And I think that's the real difference between the expertise and how we think about that. And that's the bit we need to

Mike Jones (25:42)
Mm.

Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (26:06)
really be shifting. And then which is connected to this point about winning because when the game has changed, it's almost like we keep trying to win at the old game, but the game itself has changed. And so which rules are we applying? Which playbook is in operation? Because we're actually meant to create the new rules, the new playbook. And that's where in the middle of a system shift, it gets pretty strange that we're only focused on the winning.

Mike Jones (26:20)
Mm.

Yes, yes. And I think there's plenty out there that will tell you what to think. But there's not much out there to help, you know, about how to think about this stuff. yeah, and it's a really interesting thing about the game changing and our response to that, or lack of response. Because are we willing to...

change and I suppose when it comes to it there's a lot of thing around what are we actually asking and doing because when the game, know, the external environment changes quite a lot and completely different, a lot of people then start to just go back to the traditional thing about what do we exist for but sometimes that, you you've got to challenge that but it's really thinking about well we know what we do

And it's normally about how do we then get our fit with the external environment that we need to focus on? And how do we adapt to that? And that's looking at a different way than we've done it before. Fundamentally changing how we are doing things. But they, I don't know, it's a difficult one because I suppose it's brought out of frustration. This is where I created the podcast, am I right? Because it's frustrating because people just still...

wedded to the old dogma and they're not changing.

Louise Le Gat (27:54)
Yes. And I think also it's very connected. What you were saying about adapting. there's that dynamic of a bit reacting to things as opposed to this shaping and creating. And that's part of the fundamental chef that we have to make, which is each one of us has the power of shaping things because the disruption is going to be so huge, actually.

Mike Jones (28:02)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (28:15)
And that's where I see that it's really exciting. And the good soldier is not used to being in that creating, shaping phase or that posture. Maybe if I go through some of that inner thinking around, yeah, cause that might help also. think, so what I've seen in terms of how leadership needs to evolve, it's...

Mike Jones (28:15)
Mmm.

Yeah, yeah,

Louise Le Gat (28:36)
actually going back to what I would traditionally have called self-leadership and inspirational and transformational leadership. If I was to kind of start putting in boxes, but it's like self-leadership on steroids, basically. And we need to become much more inner directed. We've ended up with leadership, which is so focused on whether it's results or the boxes that we're taking or what people are thinking of us.

or the promotion that we wanna get. we've got a leadership that's been very externally focused and we need to bring it back to being in a directed. It's like, what's our inner compass and what is that saying? And then, so there's that part. And it's not about being self-obsessed, it's about being true. That's where it's connected to that.

Mike Jones (29:21)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (29:22)
thing when we talk manager and leader, leader is much more about being true to yourself and what you're about. And a lot of us, we ended up as high achievers in that existing system. And we've created a split in terms of the things that we genuinely care about, that our own truth. Maybe it's a long time since we've even visited that place inside of us that knows what's true for us.

The second part is, I call it transformational, but at the core is we've got to reconnect to our uniqueness because how we create the new maps is it's coming back to what really makes us unique. But in terms of our true potential, not just around performance, but what is our natural flow? And when we follow that, where does our our brilliance actually live?

What I find is with a lot of leaders, it's almost having them come back to understanding what are survival mechanisms they learned to live and work and lead in the existing system and what is their way of doing it in a way that is, I live in the Swiss mountains, so there's like the skiing on piste and the skiing off piste. And when you're skiing on piste, you just follow the piste, right? And you've got a bit of your technique. When you're on piste,

Mike Jones (30:38)
Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (30:39)
you're carving your own kind of path down that mountain. The different off-piste skiers will pick a different part of the mountain. They will turn at a different bump. You're carving that. And so it's a different dynamic between connecting to your own uniqueness, your own true wisdom, and then ultimately kind of bringing that out.

And then that last part is what I call emergent, which is what I was talking about earlier, which is we have to be creating as opposed to simply setting linear objectives. ⁓ Because if you think about shape shifting, shape shifting, I don't know how you do that in the rigid structure of just my kind of set plan.

Mike Jones (31:18)
you

Louise Le Gat (31:29)
because what you're doing is you're

Mike Jones (31:29)
Hmm.

Louise Le Gat (31:31)
giving an impulse and then it's almost like the system starts to shift around that and then you'll give it another impulse and then, it's over time, know, it's in a way it's more like growing a baby than it is to actually that Gantt chart. So it's, and in some ways it's the ability to combine that, but often leaders have also lost that capability to do that. So those are the three.

aspects that we have to develop within ourselves. What do you think around that?

Mike Jones (31:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I think it, yeah, you're striking a lot of things, which I challenge a lot. And I do believe the first part, you know, understanding yourself, that's crucial because I think that unlocks a lot of the next two elements. When you come to the next two elements and you were talking about going off piece and do you, this is where I challenge around this idea of alignment.

And I used to talk about alignment a lot, but then I've come, moved more towards coherence rather than alignment, because everything you look at, even when we look at culture, objectives, metrics, there really are a centralized thing. They're saying that, you and I always laugh because when I speak to lot of HR people, they we want people to bring themselves to work.

But as long as they molded this. And you're thinking, well, they can't really bring themselves to work. And this brings into the whole idea around freedom of action. I've always said that, and even when I was in the military with my soldiers, it's like, don't care how you achieve something, as long as you achieve the outcome. And this is giving them the freedom of action.

Louise Le Gat (32:40)
you

Mike Jones (33:04)
Obviously the army is very different in probably civilian organisations. But when I say that people go, well it could be chaos. It's not because we have natural governing constraints for people which will mediate their choices. So I know, like I said, I don't care, like my soldier, I don't care how you achieve it as long as you achieve it. But I do know that they will stick to the law of armed conflict. I'm pretty confident about that.

You know, we have trained them, we have given them the skills to be able to adapt to those situations and giving them freedom of action then gives their own flair, their own style, their own perception of how they see the situation and they can adapt to the emergence, as you were saying, as it comes along. But when we create that overly centralized structure and we take all decision rights.

then there's no freedom for people to carve their own ways. And I think, and it comes further back to that technical element you talking about, that the leaders or managers that have been in those situations, they can't divorce themselves away from, well, I wouldn't have done it that way. So it must be wrong. It's not wrong. It's just not how you would do it. And that's the uniqueness, the difference that we have as human beings and we should do that.

We should enable the right structure to allow autonomy, to give people the freedom to act.

Louise Le Gat (34:25)
Yeah, completely. I think lot of things that we end up working on with people is control, because that's a survival mechanism, actually. It's like, if I'm in control, everything's going to be fine. It's kind like, well, might be and it might not be. So it might be in a stable environment that in a shape-shifting environment, if you're only relying on control as a survival mechanism, then good luck with that. Because the whole point is you're in the middle of things that are chaotic. And I think it's also...

Mike Jones (34:32)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mm.

Louise Le Gat (34:51)
from what you were saying, it's that peace in the relationship between the outer system and that inner system. And that's why when I talk about being unique, I talk about actually being transformational. Because when people say, ⁓ bring yourself to work, they can bring their self to work. Well, that's actually saying is, because we want them to be happy.

Mike Jones (35:06)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (35:14)
That's where it originally came from, right? It's like if people get to be more themselves at work, then they are happier. The thing is that it's not looking at what actually happens when people bring themselves to work. There's also another conversation, which is which self are they bringing to work? Because if you actually want to be bringing your real self, there's quite a lot of inner work that you have to do in order to be able to access that. So most people see that as...

Mike Jones (35:16)
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Louise Le Gat (35:38)
I'm going to bring a lot of my survival mechanisms to work, but it's just, you know, right a range. Where that's really relevant is when I have people bring their uniqueness, I'm showing them how to become transformation agents because they tend to automatically have to become transformation agents because the original system was actually built for controlling people.

Mike Jones (35:43)
Yeah

Louise Le Gat (36:03)
We're still in some ways in factory models. It wasn't to be creative in the factory about exactly what it was that you were doing. Not originally, even though later on those things evolved through Lean, et cetera. But the reason I mention that is that when they say bring yourself to work, they're not buying into the potential for a system shift. They're not looking at the external system shift.

Mike Jones (36:05)
Mm.

Mm.

Louise Le Gat (36:27)
and that's when it starts not working because by having people bring themselves to work, it's going to, it's actually shifting the system because it's shifting one of the rules of the system. But then people get hammered because they are bringing themselves to work and then they become a bit...

Mike Jones (36:40)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (36:45)
are kind of uncomfortable, their opinions are bit inconvenient and they might become visionaries or they may become change agents or they might challenge the status quo and people haven't thought through what that means and whether that's what they really want and so then they try and put people back into their boxes ultimately.

Mike Jones (37:02)
Yes, don't think dissent's not a bad thing. It's the willingness of the leader to listen to that dissent, to listen to those voices and at the edges of organization, try and understand what's going on and to see it from their perspective. I don't think a lot of leaders hide behind, I say a lot, it's just common for leaders because they are so busy like we talked about earlier.

that they just result to looking at qualitative, quantitative data that's going up rather than what's actually going on in the organisation and not willing to listen to people. So almost people just conform to that and go, well, what's the point in saying anything? I'll just keep my head down and do what they want me to do. And I think that's a scary point. That's a really scary...

element, just thinking about if I was back in soldier mode in the army and all my soldiers were just thinking, well, I'm just going to keep my head down, not going say anything because what's the point? I'll be pretty scared because they've got no one looking out for me. I'm in the centre trying to give direction and look for the future. I'm really reliant on those to be my senses, to be my eyes and ears, to give me that information.

Louise Le Gat (38:06)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Jones (38:17)
I'm a very vulnerable point and I just wonder if that kind of thinking translates to organisations.

Louise Le Gat (38:23)
I completely agree with you. if you go back to the metaphor of being safely in port and being out in the storm. So at one point I sailed on tall ships and there's a real difference between when you're doing watch in port and when you're doing watch in the middle of the ocean. And when you're in the middle of the ocean, you need more people looking in lots of different directions. When you're in port, it's kind of like, we kind of know where we are.

Mike Jones (38:48)
Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (38:48)
And I think that metaphor applies is you need everybody to be focused in a different way because there's so much that's going on. It also relates to another aspect of what I've been working on around what I call purpose, being a purpose-led leader and that shift from good soldier to brave builder in the sense that it's also how you bring yourself to this.

And what I've really looked at is the difference between what I call our survival mechanisms that we learnt based, because we were all brought up in the existing system. And whether we decided to fit in or to rebel, we still defined a lot of actually how we function in reaction to the old system. And the bit that I underestimated for myself is how much dismantling I would actually have to do that. And...

Mike Jones (39:31)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (39:38)
one of, so I've tried to map it at least in ways that are hopefully kind of simple. And so what I see is that there's one group which is to do with you either learned to be perfect, the polarity was to rebel, and the middle bit was just to judge, whether it's yourself and others. And so that's kind of a set of behaviors and that's maybe how we operate, but we don't realize that all those things were built

Mike Jones (39:58)
Yeah, yeah.

Louise Le Gat (40:04)
in reaction to the existing system. And that's where we have to learn to anchor solidly in our real self, like what is beyond all of those. So that's the first thing. The second piece is that there's a whole other group which is around pleasing and that external validation part. And so we either please,

Mike Jones (40:13)
Mmm.

Louise Le Gat (40:24)
or we just oppose everything, you know, and sometimes we want, you know, it's relevant, but it's almost these autopilots of I please or either I oppose. You know, there's always somebody who says, no, that's never gonna work, never, never, never. know, like, okay, all right. And then there's that middle bit, which is I'm just gonna criticize. That it's still reaction to the old system and it's still not really being in your power in terms of that.

system and so that's the bit where you want to be really shining in that unique brilliance because when you were saying bringing yourself you don't want just that person who's only criticizing or who's only pleasing you or who's only telling you how about none of it is ever gonna work or no no no you want someone who's gonna say hey I've been thinking about what you've been saying they've actually processed it through their their own brilliance and it's like have you thought about this?

And it's taking what you're doing, what you're trying to do further. And then the last part is, and if you're looking at the world as it is, you can start to see how leaders are acting out of one of those three kind of clusters and one of those three behaviors within the clusters. Then the other one is appeasing or attacking or just complaining. That's kind of the other kind of cluster.

And instead of actually what I call lighting the way to new horizons. So what you're really meant to be doing is stop just appeasing or stop just attacking or stop just complaining and start really focusing on what it is we want to create next and be the one who starts to light the way that that's where we need to go. And what I was trying to really do is that distinction from these reactive internalized kind of system software that we've got.

and what we need to do in simple ways to start to actually shift it. Or at least the terms are simple, even though the process is probably quite a lot harder to do.

Mike Jones (42:16)
Yeah, It's like you kind of want the pessimistic optimist that can be on board and see the possibilities, but you still want to be grounded. Because you have these, you know, with that you have the dynamics of leaders. One is very much open to experience and just wants to go and move, but sometimes they need that person with them that can ground them.

and challenge them, go, well, what would have to be true for this to work? Yeah. And then some leaders are stuck in that real safe space where they don't want to take risks. And I suppose they need someone there to challenge them and push them to take a few opportunities and risks to get moving forward. I think it's a really interesting thing about that balance that we need to try and...

to navigate these things. Yeah, I like that.

Louise Le Gat (43:04)
Yeah, and I think part

of that is also that, so I started coaching 25 years ago when I had to literally learn on the phone from the US because nobody was doing it in the UK. And the reason I mentioned that is, you know, that whole area has grown massively. And at its core, if you look at what it's about, it is about having people step into a different level of self leadership.

and ultimately be able to catalyze transformation with themselves and supporting others in transformation. But where it relates to what you just said is you were asking what I would call almost very good coaching questions, because all it's doing is it's having you focus in a different way. It's having you think about different things. But where I think we're going next is we need to teach people to self-coach. In terms of, ⁓ because...

Mike Jones (43:38)
Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Louise Le Gat (43:50)
we have to constantly get out of the business as usual part of our brain and start creating at least some ecosystems in our own mind that are starting to focus on how the game is changing and how we choose to shape that and how we stop the autopilot. And one of the other things I'm working with some people is also how we need to create maybe some, well, definitely ecosystems

of the future, which have a different culture internally, which are much more intrapreneurial, where you've got different value systems within the organization, because what's happening is you've got a lot of big organizations stuck in operational excellence. And the weird thing is that once we're in the middle of the ocean, your operational excellence was based on being safely in port. In the middle of the ocean,

Mike Jones (44:39)
Mm-mm.

Louise Le Gat (44:39)
you

need to have somewhere where you've got almost back at the beginning, you need some startup modes. And what I'm seeing a lot of the big organizations is actually sack their innovators, their change management, their visionaries, because they're, but they're basically focusing on optimizing efficiency. And those are the ones that kind of the misfits that don't fit neatly when actually, ironically, those misfits are the ones who often have the right reflexes.

to be able to sail in the middle of that storm. And so they have the potential to lead in the middle of that storm because they think outside of that box. So it's also an interesting piece around how you build that within your own mind, these bubbles almost, and then how you build these bubbles within organizations and then activate the right people to be able and in the right way to be able to help you.

chart your course across.

Mike Jones (45:32)
Yeah. And it's right. It's come back to that thing around navigating today versus tomorrow, but also a constant tension that organizations struggle with is efficiency versus agility. It's all about efficiency. And it's like, you know, we've, we need to cut costs. They'll get in one of the big four and the big four would just go through and go, you just strip money here and here. There's no context. There's no like,

It's like, for instance, an organisation, they were going through something, they had one of the Big Four come through, and the Big Four said, we need to cut heads. So what do mean, cut heads? Like, well, we need to reduce our spending, so we're going to reduce heads. Yeah, but what heads and for why? And it was a case of, we're just going to cut people. Well, no, no, no, what value you trying to achieve?

And then look at it that way. And we worked out that we didn't cut any heads, but we made them savings by looking at the structure in which the organization was operating. And I said, we've got to look beyond the traditional thing about efficiency, we cut people. Because then we lose that agility. And as we're saying, with the outside world being so uncertain and unstable,

and unknown that we need that agility to be able to adapt to the situation. Hopefully we maintain viability. And that operational excellence thing you were talking about blows my mind because, and I get it, we do need an element of it, which is all this ISO stuff. I say 27,000, I say blah, blah, blah, it's all the excellence. And I get it, and the core.

They are good things because they provide a level of coherent structure if they use right, but I just see consistently that people don't use them for what they should be. They use them as they just tick box, we've done this. So if we tick these boxes, we've done that and it becomes performative. It's like KPRs and OKRs, they've become performative rather than maintaining that look about outcome. What outcome are we actually trying to achieve?

And then we can adapt within with that. Yeah, there's my rant anyway. Does that make sense?

Louise Le Gat (47:37)
It completely makes sense. There's lots

of different pieces on that. I think one of the pieces that you were saying that was really resonating, it's that reflex to just cut everything. And let's be honest, I know sometimes you do have to, but it's almost, it's it's become the answer to everything. When it's, for me, it's not about cutting, it's reinventing.

Mike Jones (47:52)
Hmm.

Louise Le Gat (48:00)
That's actually what we need to do. We need to be able to reinvent. What I found during this period, and I'm on a much sort of smaller level, but before all of this, think for me, before COVID, I had a pretty stable business. I knew who my clients were, I knew what my products were, and that was it, right? And it had been working nicely and well for a period. Since 2020, it's been a ride.

Mike Jones (48:01)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (48:24)
but why it's been a ride is that because maybe also my business is so connected to where people are at in their heads. And if you think about what keeps happening, you, you, you have COVID, then you have the war in Ukraine, then you have, you know, like all these different things that we'd been through. And every time it's like this spin that kind of happens. it took me a while to understand that what was happening to me is I had to keep going back to startup mode.

Mike Jones (48:26)
Yeah.

you

Mm.

Louise Le Gat (48:52)
because people were in a different place. And what I'm seeing is that's also what organizations need to understand. They almost need to have a kind of reinvention, fast reinvention, which is connects to that agility part, to be able to keep navigating and then actually restructuring. So maybe things that you said need to be restructured. They definitely need to, but how can you do that fast?

Mike Jones (48:53)
Yes.

Louise Le Gat (49:14)
And how can you know your people so well that you can deploy them in different ways? And as I said, on top of that, who are you sacking? Because if you're sacking all your innovators because they ask difficult questions, well, maybe they're the ones you need to keep on board because maybe they'll have different answers, which is also what you need. My little rant is also, especially with AI, I'm like, so what, we're just gonna, and I know, you know,

Mike Jones (49:16)
Yes.

Yeah.

Hahaha.

Louise Le Gat (49:42)
We don't really know what's gonna happen, but there's this whole thing of, we're gonna cut, cut, cut and cut people. And I'm like, are we? Because for me, there's always this correlation between employees and customers. Like you have employees, they get paid and then they go buy stuff. And I see people so often complain to me, nobody's buying anything. And I'm like, well, everybody's sacking everybody. So it's kind of normal.

Mike Jones (49:51)
⁓ yeah.

Louise Le Gat (50:07)
because they're not separate people, they are human beings. So what happens if you sack everybody because you cut for efficiency and then nobody has cash to buy anything and then you keep cutting? mean, so that's not gonna work. What we have to do is that shaping and that reinventing on that.

Mike Jones (50:08)
Yeah.

No.

Yeah, you're totally right. And you know, AI is, I think a lot of companies did do that and they've started to track now and bring back employees that you sack because of what AI could do their job. But AI is useful to free up the capacity of your employees. So I always try to tell people AI is an effect. It is not a person, it's an effect. And actually you can use it effectively to...

free up the capacity of your people to get more from them. There's something that you can't get from AI, but it just means that your employees have got more time and capacity to do the stuff that we've been talking about all episode rather than filling in the spreadsheet. Something like that. think there's a lot to get our heads around.

or leaders to get their heads around, organisations to get their heads around, around this new world, this new paradigm and be willing to dismantle probably what has helped them quite graciously up till now, but they need to know that yes, that had its time and place. It doesn't mean it wasn't effective. It's just not got fit with where we're going now. So we need to find a way to get fit. And I've absolutely loved this conversation Louise. Before we...

Is there anything that you would like to leave our listeners to think about from this podcast?

Louise Le Gat (51:43)
Well, there's just one piece that in terms of what you just said that I did want to kind of mirror back if that's okay is I think that the conversation where it's shifting now is actually what has value and how do we add value? Because often what we have is people in organizations, they kind of feel like they're just doing their job. And we're not asking those questions anymore around...

Mike Jones (51:48)
yeah, Yeah, cool.

Mm.

Louise Le Gat (52:09)
what has value now, because in this world, what has value is actually shape shifting. And what I would say to people is, remember, we're building the plane as we fly it. So we're getting to define what has value now. And so what I would say as leaders is we have to be brave and step up at a completely different level around

Mike Jones (52:25)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (52:32)
being willing to shape the conversation around what has value. And then the other part of our job is to ultimately activate our people around how do they think in this value add kind of way, because that gives you that what I'd call intrapreneurial agility. That, you when you were talking about...

Mike Jones (52:32)
Mmm.

Mm.

Louise Le Gat (52:52)
when you were in the military and they had your back, that's how we all have our backs because everybody then is looking at what are we doing in terms of actual value add and how am I contributing to that, which takes things to a completely different level. But in order to do that, we have to stop, if I just do the be perfect, please and appease, that's just not gonna give you that because that's not what.

Mike Jones (53:12)
Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (53:19)
Yeah, that system was designed for, so as the system shape shifts, we have to shape shift our own software to be able to contribute that, being solidly in ourselves, that unique brilliance, and really being able to start lighting new possibilities and create literally, we get to be the generation that is creating stuff that has never ever been thought of at a completely different level.

Mike Jones (53:38)
Mm.

Louise Le Gat (53:46)
than we've had before. So it's time to stick our head above the parapet and get going with that. And lastly, there's going to be a, what I also think is exciting is that there's about to be a generational shift on boards. I'm 52 and it's like Gen X is up now. And so I, my final message is to Gen X's, we have an opportunity here to make a difference.

Mike Jones (53:54)
Yeah.

Louise Le Gat (54:12)
by stepping to that completely different of legacy leadership and not just doing, keep doing the same old. So there's an opportunity here, but we have to really choose to grab it.

Mike Jones (54:22)
Yeah, I that's good. I like that. it really resonates that point, it really aligns with what you were talking about earlier around the shape, instead of constantly reacting to what's going on. That's awesome. Thank you. I really love the conversation, Louise, and I'll put your details if people want to reach out to you for a further conversation. But yeah, I think there's a lot to go away and think about there.

I've written some notes that I'm going to go explore and think about. So thank you very much for that.

Louise Le Gat (54:49)
Thank you so

much for the conversation too. Really great. We changed the world today, think. Hopefully.

Mike Jones (54:52)
Awesome. Exactly, yeah.

And ⁓ I look forward to meeting you in person at the SIO conference in the third and fourth of September. That'd be great. It'd be awesome.

Louise Le Gat (55:02)
Yeah, I've been leading a session on the inner system shifts.

So yeah, that's a good place to continue the conversation.

Mike Jones (55:06)
Yes.

Awesome. And yeah, so I look forward to seeing you then. Thank you very much Louise. I'll speak to you soon. Bye.

Louise Le Gat (55:11)
Thank you. Bye.